OUGD601: Interview with Fashion Photography course leader

Sarah - Fashion Photography Course Leader

Whats your background?

Well I’ve taught fashion photography before at other institutions, so theres that, but back in the day I worked for a photographer, who was a commercial photographer who also did fashion as well, so I worked as her assistant for some time and I also worked as a stylist. I then went on to do a fine art photography degree, so I’m still a practitioner but my own language is using fashion and fine art photography to create political and conceptual point, well work. I’ve been spending a lot of time teaching so I’m not really in the industry anymore.

So who are your biggest inspirations?

My current inspiration, well they change all the time, my favourite photographer at the Minuit is Vivienne Sassen, I have liked Tim Walker in the past, still do like Tim Walker and he is a big influence but Vivienne Sassen is the strongest one now, I like Harley Wier- I think her works fantastic, Coco capitan is really interesting, Maisie Cousins, Danny Treacy, I could go on and on, but those kinds of people really. So, fashion but with a bit of an edge. Not so much a narrative because when you look at their work blind it looks quite abstract, but they all definitely have concepts underneath it, and really mostly about the body, thats where my interests really lie, in the female body and how thats represented. 

Do you think fashion images with an underlying concept (or narrative) are more engaging to an audience or is it subjective? 

It depends on the audience - it’s a difficult one. I think they are more engaging with me, subjectively, but I think people who maybe take fashion seriously or want fashion to be something more sustainable as a subject if you like, are interested in imagery who isn’t just about representing clothes and glamorising lifestyles, or just about power and glamour and status. That being said, there are probably plenty of people who want their fashion photography to look like fashion photography  and like it because of it’s links to glamour, power and status. I do think the tides are turning and I think fashion imagery itself, there are so many niche and independent magazines now, and even platforms to look at it on, the way that fashion is represented through film and photography has changed and it is far more conceptual, far more experimental, far more political, wether it’s constructed or has a documentary feel to it- either or. I think a lot of photographers are keen to communicate something more than pretty clothes. 

It interests me how Dazed & The Face started off as street style magazines, using candid styles of fashion photography and we can now look back on those issues and feel like that is what the 1980’s/1990’s was like… do you think that there are any magazines accurately representing 2017 for what it is today or do you think the earnest is more on concept than that (reality)?

I think theres two things there - one is that we live in a society which is so fast paced, we see things really quickly, we see things on Instagram, other social media, websites, magazines, blogs, theres so much its really broad, whereas before, certainly last century it was narrower, so I think you have these big fashion narratives - probably pre 2005 and the fashion system is so much faster now. There are so many fashion narratives going on. I would say there is no defining look to 2017, theres no magazines defining 2017 like Vogue had all the power but their changing, and what I think is more interesting is more magazines but tailored to niche audiences. Cool things like An Other, Love and Pop but they’re still fairly mainstream, even Dazed & i.D are now mainstream, but then you have things like Pilot and Polyester Zine and Garage and theres millions of them, all catering to different kinds of men and women, different kinds of body, different kinds of age as well, it’s much broarder. 

Do you think the rise of Instagram and the accessibility of those fashion images has helped fashion photography thrive in the recent years?

Yeah I do think it has had an impact, because I think theres two ways of looking at it. On one hand people say Instagram has a democratising effect on fashion photography in a similar way to magazines like i.D did back in the 80’s. It means anyone can now be a fashion photographer, so there is that. But then there is also, people who are trained as photographers or educated in the arts can be creative and have now got more platforms to get their work out there, rather than going through the old fashion hierarchical route working as an assistant- getting some editorial for Vogue- then doing a big ad campaign blah blah blah, now they can be really creative and experimental and develop an audience for their work through social media.

Do you think that experimentation could possibly filter into other sectors such as advertising, so possibly magazines or ad campaigns do become less rigid and commercial?

I think so - when I mention a photographer like Vivienne Sassen who is very experimental, her work is shown in galleries as well as in the pages of magazines, she is now hired for her own personal style. She is hired to do add campaigns, so she did the Celine campaign and she’s done some sportswear campaigns, but they wanted a bit of Vivienne Sassen, in the same way they’d want someone like Alasdair Mclellan or Jamie Hawkesworth have got very distinctive styles, I know they’re not as constructed as those of like Tim Walker - but commercially they are seeing all of this crazy cool work and wanting a bit of that.

Do you reckon that is for commercial reason only or..?

Yeah definatley. Well, thats the question isn’t it. Are they just buying into it because it’s cool and trendy and might hit the right target market. I suspect that more than a genuine wokening to these images but even those who work in advertising are always being refreshed. The younger generations are coming through, generations of people who have been brought up on Instagram will now be taking their first steps and careers in advertising, so it’s not just the domain of 50 year old men anymore- it is different. So potentially, that could filter through as well. 

Do you think fashion photography could have/has a positive or negative influence on society?

I am very passionate that it could have a positive - well I can’t say that all fashion photography can have a positive contribution - I think it can be very damaging when we see unrealistic body images, of course that is one side of it, but I think there are loads of really interesting photographers, and designers as well, who want their brands and designs represented in an interesting way. I think theres lots of areas where fashion photography could have a massively positive effect. We took students to the Vogue photography fashion exhibition in Milan a few weeks ago, and the theme was fashion and politics. It was really interesting to see all the different ways that photographers - and their teams - are kind of trying to look at clothes and bodies in lots of different ways. They’re tackling politics and issues in loads of different ways. The Jigsaw campaign is probably one to look at, they’re just a high street shop but they’re promoting these ideas of anti-brexit, where they’re saying, who makes your clothes? Immigrants and migrants, so they have this massive campaign raising awareness of that. Again, that’s just one aspect where photography and the brands are changing peoples ideas. 

Stephen Misel took it slightly too far when he shot the Water & Oil editorial for Vogue Italia in 2001, to which there was a huge backlash, do you think there should be any topics which are off limits to fashion photography and commercial representation?

You know what I don’t know - I have mixed feelings about that Stephen Misel, his work was in this festival actually, but reading what he said about that work, I mean it did feel like it was in bad taste but then he said ‘You know what, I’m a fashion photographer so how am I meant to comment on society when I don’t use fashion photography, which is my language to make comments?’. And if you think about the mass circulation of something like Vogue Italia, everyone saw those images and wether they liked them or not it certainly raised awareness of pollution. Maybe a documentary photographer or fine art photographer who showcase in a very niche magazine, which few people get to see, is it really achieving the same thing? So really you could argue that Stephen Misels work had a massive impact and actually got things moving. So I don’t know but I would say there was nothing that is out of bounds, as long as it is handled with intelligence and research.

Do you think we could harness positivity and put that back into society? And if so, how?

Wow I don’t know- thats like solving world peace isn’t it! Through education, the fashion industry itself, the fashion system itself, the designers, photographers, casting agents, and all of this is being mindful and being educated and thinking about the images which are going out there. The editors as well, the fashion editors, the advertisers, everybody, they think about the messages that they can be sending out into the world- because we are talking about pop culture here- so I think it could be done, but there is still a lot of education needed. Also, as consumers, of the imagery, of the clothes, we need to have some responsibility as well. It’s a big subject isn’t it.. to be kind of indulging in fast fashion all the time, BooHoo, Pretty Little Thing etc, all of those things, if we’re buying into those ideals then it’s not really to do with fashion photography but is to do with fashion, so we must ask how do any responsible brands or advertisers make ethical decisions themselves when they’re faced with this need to be buying and throwing away. So, I think there is all of that which faces the fashion system. Fashion photography can’t change it itself, its the whole system that has got to change actually.

So should fashion photographers and crews have a social responsibility, or ethical guide when practicing their work?

I don’t think that to be honest, because then you’re putting the earnest onto the fashion photographer when really they’re just a part of the creative team. I think it is just as much the responsibility for a magazine editor, an art director, a fashion editor, a designer, you know, a brand director, I think they’re all in it together in the fashion system so you cant pull out just the photographer because sometimes they make those decisions but sometimes they dont. Like the photographer might not have made the casting choices for the models, sometimes they don’t necessarily choose the clothes, the stylist is often hired before the photographer. It would be great if everybody together definitely thought more about it and took more responsibility in what they’re doing, it’s a difficult world the fashion world. 

How many people would be in a creative team?

It does vary on what the shoot would be for. If it was someone like Tim Walker, he has set designers, set builders, he’s probably got more than one stylist, and he’ll have a big team of makeup artists and hair stylists, you know there will be a massive big team, and the models and the art director and the fashion editors, and the wardrobe assistants so there might be a team of 20. Where as someone like Jaime Horksworth, might have a team of three of 4. Normally a stylist, normally a hair and makeup artist, they might be separate, normally you would have a fashion editor if it was editorial, or a brand director if it was advertising, and then the photographer and their assistant. A retoucher might be on set, a studio manager might be on set, so it does depend on location as well. Nick Knight has got about 3 studio assistants, first, second and third, but they’ll all be behind the scenes just looking and observing, then there will be the people working with the models.

What is the role of a fashion editor in the shoots?

Well in terms of Vogue there would be a fashion editor/director who would dictate all the clothes wich go in Vogue and how they would be shot in editorial. They would commission the photographer and the stylist and there may be a sub fashion editor who might work on one shoot who still works for Vogue, but they’ll be responsible for the editorial content for Vogue. So they’d be leasing with everyone discussing what the clothing narrative would be, what’s the fashion story they want to tell with the Vogue. If you look in the back of Vogue or whatever magazine, you’ll have about 12 images all based around one story and the editor will be selecting those, so the fashion editor will keep having to talk to the magazine editor; is this okay? Is this the story we want to tell?

Each different context and magazine would have it’s own fashion editor and team. Even Saturday and Sunday newspapers have a fashion team and they would be very aware of their audience, so they would be styling and the clothes they select for a Cosmo reader would be different to Vogue. But, they would have an innate understanding of what that Cosmo reader wants, what age they were, what do they buy? What brands do they like? What do they aspire to? So they try and paint this picture of these men and women, and they would be targeting everything to what their ideal reader would be. I mean, more people do look at Vogue but everyone does it, Vogue, Dazed and Confused, i.D would be the same, An Other would be the same, and they all do it to paint the right picture.

So, is aspiration always key in constructing a fashion story?

Absolutely, absolutely! At the end of the day we are dealing with this thing, we don’t need anymore clothes, we’ve got enough clothes, we’re buying into a lifestyle, and a fantasy, we don’t buy clothes because we need to cover ourselves we buy clothes because either we want to aspire to be someone else, or aspire to a different life style, or even just because we want to be happier and they might cheer us up. They can just make us feel lovely, better, for whatever reason so theres all those little aspects to aspiration. The status thing, but the smaller aspirations like just wanting to present a better version of ourselves the day after, because we can, or because we like playing with our identity- thats aspirational to a certain extent isn’t it.

When you look at fashion images, such as Tim Walker or your favourite photographers, what emotions do you get from that, personally?

Ugh thats a difficult one, I look mostly because of the course and the job but I tend to feel inspired by the photography. If I’m honest, I don’t always look at the clothes, I mean I do like clothes as well but I wouldn’t necessarily go to those magazines for outfit ideas. I would be excited and inspired by the photography, or I might be like ‘someone will like this’ or just think ‘this is beautiful’ if it’s highly visual, I do get a little kick from looking at it. I think, when I was younger (before I was teaching fashion photography), I use to pull stuff out of magazines all the time, I had a scrap book of things I wanted to go back too, and they were like Tim Walker actually, very fantastical images, quite surreal actually, I am a big fan of surrealism so definitely.

Do you think it’s all down to subjectivity and personal preference for what makes a good fashion image or editorial? Or could that be possible in anyone?

I think it is a little bit subjective, it’s a bit of both isn’t it, we have those expectations that we’re going to see something really lovely and exciting in these magazines, thats why we choose them. It’s like when we choose to go to a certain art gallery, we have expectations that we’re going to see some art, so in a sense that’s not really subjective, but we all have our different subjective tastes within that though don’t we. So yeah, it is to a certain degree but not 100% I don’t think. 

Tim Walker famously harnesses the power of fantasy in his images, which is one of the things which has made him most successful, do you think this would be unattainable for students to recreate due to budget issues, or do you think fantasy can be created through more affordable means?

I would like to think fantasy can be created through more affordable means- Tim Walker wasn’t Tim Walker when he was a student, obviously, he’s got big budgets. You can be, when you’ve got a really cool creative team, you can be really creative and resourceful and create fantastical images, I mean look at the surrealists back in the 30’s, they weren’t spending thousands of pounds on big budget things but they still created fantasy images, through photography as well, lighting sometimes can just be enough, the right body and the right lighting. Erwin Bloomenfeld’s images are also really beautiful, but he had an enormous technical understanding, simple in terms of, you don’t need lots of things you just need the concept and talent through practice I guess.

So where do you see the future of fashion photography progressing?

I would like to see it becoming more individual, more collaborations between designers and photographers, broader, more experimental, I don’t know if it is the future but a wider diverse city of models, and I don’t just mean through race. Age, size etc, and I think there are far more magazines popping up catering for all kinds of people whereas you could say that fashion photography in the past is about a certain ideal of beauty, I think fashion photography in the future is just really challenging the fact that there is one beauty ideal, whereas I think we can see lots of beauty ideals. Yeah definitely more diverse, and rich and creative and conceptual. Moving image is big part of fashion photography as well so it could even be creating whole immersive environments really. You know, that’s something I’d like our students to get involved with- virtual reality - but maybe with collaborations with design students is definitely part of the future.